I have a couple of friends that are trolls(they call themselves that). They frequent Facebook and they make silly comments are try to rile people up, because....well i guess they're bored. They take pride in being banned from Facebook so shock humor. They are pretty funny.
Why is this relevant? What I have learned from them is that high-speed internet is conducive to trolling at all levels.
Facebook users want comments and reactions, so their post do just that.
Large sites want clicks and attention, so their content does just that.
A deep multifaceted conversation is boring and difficult to do. And above all else does not give you the same satisfaction as emotional content. The internet is an emotional medium, not a rational one. I treat it that way. To learn more on this check out neil portman, specifically his book "amusing ourselves to death".
I try to remind myself that things on the internet could very well have been produced by an angry techsavvy teenager, rather than to attribute any authority to it.
Something I've noticed, and fallen victim to in recent weeks, is that FB will often display in my feed a post by a news site (for me, they're usually NPR, CNBC or the local TV station), and underneath they'll display exactly _one_ comment. That one comment is almost always something insane (no more serious than the flu, they're counting all dead people not just dead from the virus, you get the picture). But when I open the story to view all comments, there are hundreds of not-insane ones. In fact it is often impossible to find the "featured" comment if I wanted to reply since there are so many others. I get the distinct impression that FB has an algorithm that promotes disinformation comments in order to....well I assume in order to make more money somehow. I've had to train myself to read the news stories (which are useful to me) but brain-skip over the featured comment.
I'm not on facebook but it sounds entirely plausible. Facebook conducts psychological experiments[0] to optimise for user engagement so if that anger can make you stay a bit longer and see a few more ads then that's money for them.
Those precious hate dollars have deadly consequences though, especially for Muslims[1][2].
Also not on fb. It sounds plausible to me as well.
But even in the best case scenario social media is not a robust system and will amplify controversy.
In addition there is money to be made by fanning the flames. I mean it pretty genius, people get angry they go on fb to rant about it.
Zuckerberg will be a name remembered like Carnegie, but not for making anything. Just for owning feelings and controversy. Second best to owning the color blue.
> I get the distinct impression that FB has an algorithm that promotes disinformation comments in order to....well I assume in order to make more money somehow.
Controversial comments drive engagement. FB's algorithm is designed to drive engagement. They've literally built an AI troll.
Facebook does a weird thing where it prioritises "Top Fan" accounts on loads of pages in the comments, which very often wind up being some person with an agenda geared directly towards that page.
In my experience though the "featured comment" is always from someone against the page owner. E.g. a rabbid Fox News conspiracy theory quoting poster commenting on an NPR story.
yep, that's what I mean, they prioritise the people who are most engaged with the page, and that seems to usually wind up being someone with a huge grudge.
These are possibly "controversial" posts tagged as such because of it received a variety of positive and negative reactions.
And no mystery as to "why". They want you to click on that conversation. Perhaps you visit the news site generating a click. Now you're all wound so you scroll some more, see some more ads, and get stuck posting another comment, more ads, more clicks, etc.
Maybe so, but it's already quite leaning in one political direction. I would love for the great, smart people that frequent here to discuss controversial/right-leaning topics with critique, nuance and fair points, but it just doesn't happen because "downvotes". We're all human, and we have greater-than-zero tendency to emotionally "dislike" contradicting opinions, valid or not.
I would argue the case that facebook is not malicious and promote disinformation. If their algorithm promotes comments that get lots of emojis and responses you would see the same behavior. I see it in many forums, the top comments are usually controversial.
Now add to that fact that all sites rely on web traffic to make money and you get a systems of incentives that breeds discontent and divisiveness. On top of all that high speed visual medium, such as the internet, produce an emotional response with little time to rationally process information.
Dude, no offence to you, but your buddy sounds like a sociopathic asshole, and I say sociopathic because they surely have to know that their trolling is contributing to society-wide changes having really negative effects, yet they choose to do it anyway.
Being "just one of a multitude" cheering on and enabling the grifters, sociopaths and wannabe tyrants - whatever the motivation - doesn't lessen their culpability.
None taken, I get where you are coming from. They are pretty cool dudes with a messed up sense of humor for sure. They are in their 50s and they started small and it's snowballed into this.
Sample troll from many years: "Wisconsin is the worst city EVER"!
Outrage comment thread ensues.
I guess my take away is that don't take everything seriously, especially when it's coming from people you don't know.
I'll use the same buddy's quote: "Life is too important to take seriously".
> They are in their 50s and they started small and it's snowballed into this.
What's the force of nature that's pushing this snowball down the hill? Sounds like joy of hurting others, amplified by feedback and validation from like-minded people online.
I agree. But if that's the case, trolling really isn't a joke, and recommendations to ignore it or not take it too seriously are misguided or disingenuous.
The judgement and recommendations of people doing the trolling don't bear much weight. I'd rather hear from the people on the receiving end. If it's not welcome, then it should stop.
> I'd rather hear from the people on the receiving end. If it's not welcome, then it should stop.
It seems kind of obvious that harassment of any kind isn't welcome by the recipient. That's given by definition of the word "harassment". I've definitely been on the receiving end for what it's worth.
I sense an undertone (in your friend's quote) of, "why should I care if people are too dumb to realise that someone is just trolling the?". Would that be a fair assessment? If so, that's pretty tragic. It means that people who aren't as smart/savvy/wise are fair-game. In a jungle that law holds true. So perhaps, this is humanity reverting to type.
Personally, my hopes have always been that we would continue to build on ideas of society that flourished post enlightenment (oh the irony when people rabbit on about protecting "western values" by offering to subvert them).
I guess, I can't see that it's possible to hope/work/strive for a better world, and be a troll. One is constructive, the other nihilistic at best and actively destructive at worst.
There's a general social consensus that it's wrong to taunt or poke fun at the intellectually disabled. Yet many people see nothing wrong with deriding and disrespecting those in the (roughly) 75 - 99 IQ range. I've seen that all over HN comments, and some of the smartest and most educated posters are the worst offenders. Why is that?
"It means that people who aren't as smart/savvy/wise are fair-game."
Worst thing is it completely disrupts some of the best people who are completely genuine and take things at face value. It wouldn't surprise me if normally decent people have been quite corrupted by their experiences online with trolls and fakes and scams.
Sometimes he argues things he believes and tries to make a point from silliness. Other times he's just a dick saying messed up things that he finds a funny.
Either way he's just a guy flesh and bones and he doesn't say things online he doesn't say in person. He's just a dude at the end of the day.
> Personally, my hopes have always been that we would continue to build on ideas of society that flourished post enlightenment
I shared this view for quite some time. But rationality can only get you so far.
So weird stuff can out of the enlightenment, i.e. fascism and communism, and they were underpinned by rational thought but were totally messed up.
> One is constructive, the other nihilistic at best and actively destructive at worst.
I'm not defending a troll here. I'm just saying don't attribute to malice that which you can explain with trolling. In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust. Also, I would say that this is only possible on the internet. Anyone can tell when someone is just messing around vs. trying to subvert people. It's the difference between being an asshole and trying to start a cult. On the internet, you can accidentally start a cult. In real life you cant.
> In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust.
Just because we live in a non-robust system at the moment, doesn't mean it's wise to destroy it, or let it be destroyed. I've lived and worked in failed states, and I can assure you that the alternative is assuredly to a non-robust but at least functioning state is much, much worse.
> Also, I would say that this is only possible on the internet.
Yes, and for most of us, our political life is primarily lived on the Internet these days, for better or worse.
> What does that say about the internet?
Perhaps the only thing you've said so far I agree with. Yes, I've gone from an Internet utopian to an Internet dystopian in 10 short years.
I don't think that "non-robust" is the right way to look at it. Nor do I think that Facebook, Google, etc. have a large number of employees devoted to evil or that third party bad actors are fully responsible. I think what has happened is that the infrastructure is now based on algorithms that reward trolling and disinformation beyond the ability of anyone to stop. It's kind of like a gray goo scenario of the mental space of internet users that we're too anesthetized to really fight.
That's not the impression I got, at all. That's exactly what it seems you are doing, repeatedly, on this page. On top of it, you seem to be saying that if a troll does damage, it's the system's fault, not the troll's.
> I'm just saying don't attribute to malice that which you can explain with trolling. In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust.
Trolls are just cool dudes people take too seriously, you say. (That's those peoples' fault.) And if you do something with bad effects, you are excused if you thought it was funny.
Why do you think trolling and acts of malice are two separate things?
> That's exactly what it seems you are doing, repeatedly, on this page.
I don't think that's the case. My answers are not snarky.
My overall points is that the internet as a platform, as a means of communications, has a tendency to promote heated, emotional conversations. In contract to rational, logical debates that reach conclusions of a sort.
I think this is because the internet is primarily a visual medium. By that I mean it that information is portrayed and accompanied by pictures over text. In addition to that, it is a high speed medium. This has the consequence of leaving little time for processing information.
The comparison I hold in my mind is a video essay vs. an article or books. An article is just text, there is little to attract your attention other than that (maybe the typeset matters). But a video essay provides a series of shots, that constantly change to draw your attention, the persons appearance, or the images displayed all factor into how you feel, rather than just the information.
Defense of trolls is neither here nor there. The trolls will be with us forever. They are simply a fact of life now, like gravity. Given that reality, how can we make our systems more robust against trolling?
Nonsense. Because they've been around for a decade or so (in numbers), they'll be with us forever? That's like saying, hey why police crime, criminals are a fact of life, they'll be with us forever. How do we make society more robust against crime? Answer: we do it by cracking down on criminals.
Trolling is not victimless.
You must be new here. Usenet was already full of trolls in the 1990's. Trolling is shitty behavior and not to be condoned. But legally there is no victim unless they are specifically libelling or advocating violence against someone. I certainly wouldn't want law enforcement to chase trolls, because that would be a 1st Amendment violation and a waste of tax money.
Idk. If someone said something insane like vaccines cause autism in most kids who take it to troll and some parents believed that.
Who needs to change more here? Seriously, someone who is a parent who has probably gone through formal education or heck at least primary school will know that those statements are insane.
I of course want troll to stop but I don't see how you can just ignore the people who fall for that stuff. It seems we as a society have done something wrong for people to take trolls seriously.
So how would that friend feel if someone forwards Screenshots of the trolling to his wife, children and possibly employer, that would be funny wouldn't it?
> The internet is an emotional medium, not a rational one.
utterly floored at how obvious this is but almost everyone has missed it. "the information superhighway", indeed.
im kind of speechless. this fits so well with everything: the degredation of media, the explosion of tracking and near-total destruction of privacy no one cares about, the most-used social media (twitter, fb, ig) having the smallest information exchange, the prevalence of easily disprovable conspiracy theories.
people have always been irrational, emotional animals. im not sure why we thought itd be different now.
> utterly floored at how obvious this is but almost everyone has missed it. "the information superhighway", indeed.
Interestingly, there was a class of people who never missed that from day one. "Don't believe everything you read on the internet," our teachers warned us. We scoffed: if we could be so stupid. No one believes anything you read on the internet.
Only looking back do I notice the slow change. We have become a people who believe everything they see on the internet.
> Only looking back do I notice the slow change. We have become a people who believe everything they see on the internet.
These days, if something is NOT on the internet, it is suspect. Even if the evidence is in a well-researched book, if people can't find a URL for it, they immediately dismiss arguments out of hand. You see it all the time on this forum as well.
I once had a disagreement with a colleague about a claim in a lab manual for undergraduates. About 10 seconds into the discussion, his instinctive reaction was "Does the internet say that's right?"
After speaking with the professor that teaches the class, his instinct was also to check that the internet says it's right before updating the lab manual. I had a simple argument based on a well-known formula, but ultimately it's the internet that decides whether it's right or not.
> We have become a people who believe everything they see on the internet.
And the "traditional" media scrambled, falling all over themselves, desperately trying to become relevant as their business model disappeared, moving their content online, competing in the cacophonic nightmare of screaming known as the internet. Little did they know that adding more signal to the noise just tricked us into believe that noise was signal.
"angry techsavvy teenager" but your "friends" "are in their 50s." Riiiighht. At least you're able to have a multifaceted conversation in this context.
"They are pretty cool dudes with a messed up sense of humor." I dunno but that sounds pretty sociopathic right there, like my friends are cool dudes with a penchant for stealing walkers from old ladies.
There's a certain character type that revels in the rule of the strongest. Bullying and screwing with people because they can. They feel it's the natural order of things. If they don't take advantage of someone or some opportunity, someone else will and be ahead--and they'd rather be ahead. Or they justify it as a way to "teach" others to not be weak and fall for things.
In many ways, I think it is a right-wing or conservative characteristic: rugged individualist winning by breaking social conventions. I also saw it prominently in the House TV series, not coincidentally on Fox. Every episode is a medical mystery, but also all about screwing over other people emotionally--it really seemed off to me.
In my mind, they are low-trust players trying to undermine and benefit from breaking a high-trust society.
It is a means of communication that can invoke a strong emotional response. Mainly cause it's visual. A movie might make a good point or make you feel sympathetic. But it is hard to build up a rational, logic argument. It's all feel.
The emotional response takes away from rational processing of the information.
A great example is the 1960 kennedy v. nixon debate. Nixon was doing well. He showed up sick, with a dark suit. Kennedy was young and handsome in a blue suit. It's hard to really listen to someone that looks bad.
The internet is an extension of TV in that regard.
HN is one of the few forums that you can have some serious conversations. In part because of the audience, but also in part of the format. There are no emojis, or gifs or pictures, nothing shiny to distract.
It's just text on a screen.
EDIT: Neil Postman is a great resource and describes it much better than I can
So is the internet actually increasing the number of these borderline psychopaths/sociopaths or is it just giving each individual more power to do damage?
Embedded in every tool is an ideological bias.
Ex. To a person with a hammer everything is a nail. To a person with a pencil everything is a list. ...
The internet makes us differently think in a number of different ways.
1. I no longer need to remember things, or remember where or how to find things (remember encyclopedias and librarians)
2. I no longer have to rely on one source of stimulus (i can jump to the next video, finish this article later, )
There are more things but just from these two you are conditioned to not retain knowledge or understanding and react to the new shiny thing. I would say that to a person with internet everything is to immediately respond to.
What do you thing the end of the sentence should be
"To a person with internet everything is _____"
I'd say with no actual data to back up my position, that it is increasing.
My reasoning would be because tech companies have designed social platforms to reward shallow hot takes. If you say something provocative in the fewest amount of characters you generate the largest response. You are rewarded with karma/likes/votes/retweets. This we all know fuels dopamine reaction so it creates a cycle.
Short hot takes need to maximize the provocation of the statement. These short comments are easy to share and digest which is easy to create a short response towards.
Doing this over and over you have to devolve into crazy ass statements that resemble something a sociopath would say.
In addition to the negative the positive is rewarded.
Positive status symbols are rewarded. Ex. pictures of a 5k, or the top of a hike or volunteering.
All that feel good stuff has the same effect. You are curating your image for the audience and eventually you become that image.
It really encourages clique mentality one way or another and shoves people into echo chambers.
I have a couple of friends that are trolls(they call themselves that). They frequent Facebook and they make silly comments are try to rile people up, because....well i guess they're bored. They take pride in being banned from Facebook so shock humor. They are pretty funny.
Why is this relevant? What I have learned from them is that high-speed internet is conducive to trolling at all levels. Facebook users want comments and reactions, so their post do just that. Large sites want clicks and attention, so their content does just that.
A deep multifaceted conversation is boring and difficult to do. And above all else does not give you the same satisfaction as emotional content. The internet is an emotional medium, not a rational one. I treat it that way. To learn more on this check out neil portman, specifically his book "amusing ourselves to death".
I try to remind myself that things on the internet could very well have been produced by an angry techsavvy teenager, rather than to attribute any authority to it.